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 1899 to early 1900?>>> Chainless "IDENTIFIED"
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2017 :  21:19:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So here are the photos of this chainless I picked up. I suspect it to be 1899 to very early 1900. Many of the chainless models in 1899 changed to the ridged connection to the stays connecting to the rear of the seat tube, single speed, non coaster/brake type (which I've read most of the ABC models switched to in 1900)

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Rear stay to seat tube connection; The rear stays; at the top are round (above the arched cross connection just above the wheel) and taper to a "D" profile from there to the rear axel connections.

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The serial number is located on the underside of the crank case with a precurser of a letter. There is patent date information in small font directly under the serial number stamps

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The front wheel (possibly a Crescent) is inconsistent with the rear and type of fork, the axle is for a drop out type, this has eyelets for the axle.

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Crown fork;

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The rear wheel hub, specifically the eyelets for the spokes on the drive side (hard to see) are elongated between two spoke holes forming a slot. The opposite side of the hub has a typical single hole for the spoke to slide into.

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Rear bevel assembly has this serrated crown like cap which protrudes just beyond the covers when in place.

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Seat, Down and top tubing sizes are consistent at 1 1/4". The head tube slightly larger at 1 3/8 (+). The head tube is 6" in length between the collars.

The head badge screw holes are run vertically centered on the head tube at 2 15/16" O.C. apart.
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The rear forks are 7/8" dia. each.

Crank housing cover measures approximately 4 1/2" dia.

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Distance between center of rear axle and front axel is approximately 44 1/8"

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The perpendicular distance from the line between centers of both axles, to the center of crank hanger is 2 5/8"

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Kelly "STYLE" adjustable handlebars.
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Thank you again, for looking at this. I'd like to fix it up for some of the events in the future. We have a ladies shaft drive '98 Columbia, and thought this would be a nice companion bicycle.






Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com

Edited by - Kurt S. on 09/06/2017 14:50:52

David Brown

Canada
249 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2017 :  05:30:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pretty sure that is a Crescent
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2017 :  07:39:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
David,

That's what I was thinking when I picked it up. But those seat stays and the head tube length and badge holes are giving me a headache. Also the Crescent serial numbers are quite high numerically in comparison without any letter prefix.

I looked into Crawford and those are real similar as well, short head tube, badge holes match (at least for what I could scale). However, I have not been able to see any '99 through 01. The drive changed from the earlier 98, where the rear fork was placed inside the drive shaft. Dave's Vintage has an 02 pictured, with a drive that matches this one, but the stays to the seat tube are different.

I haven't found any reference to serial numbers for Crawford, that might help rule it in or out.

I did a rather non scientific check of the gearing by rolling the bicycle next to a tape measure for a full revolution of the crank and found that to be about 77 to 78 inches.<<<Since the time I had done this I have taken apart the drive-line and the actual gearing to my surprise is 71 1/2"<<<

It is also a 22" frame.

Has a Wheeler Extra #86 seat by American saddle. The saddle dates between 1899 and 1901 & "IF" the saddle is original to the bicycle, might be an indicator as well to the date of the bicycle.


Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com

Edited by - Kurt S. on 09/04/2017 19:56:59
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2017 :  08:26:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just for reference to what I was speaking of to the similarities of this and that of a Crawford.

There this 1902 model at Daves Vintage with a shaft design that has the driving shaft inside the rear fork;<<<FOUND LATER NOT TO BE A CRAWFORD AT ALL
http://www.nostalgic.net/1902-crawford-shaft-drive

But then there is the 1898 Crawford design where the fork is inside the driving member or tube;
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Somewhere between 1898 and 1902 it changed, and most of 1900 could be ruled out because they ceased operations during this year due to the ABC trust take over.




Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com

Edited by - Kurt S. on 08/24/2017 17:47:14
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2017 :  13:28:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is a photo of the stays I had mentioned they are round tube above the arch, just above the tire, & from the arch to the rear axle is "D" profiled tubing;

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Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2017 :  14:17:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Interestingly how similar the rear stay are as well on both the 1902 Crawford mentioned and that of a '97 Crescent example. Dick Rath has one up on his web page= www.timemachineslimited.com

Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com
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David Brown

Canada
249 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2017 :  17:25:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess I was looking at the drive train as i had a Crescent chainless some years ago with the same design.
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/20/2017 :  20:49:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think from twenty feet it be hard to tell the difference!!!


Here is a side by side of a 99 Crescent and the bicycle in question; Notice what I'm seeing is those small serrated pieces, that crowned piece behind the bevel protrudes out of the cover, but not like that on the Crescents.

99 Crescent Below

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Bicycle of question below:

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Now using the same 99 Crescent image and compare the end bracket of the fork that forms a "C".

Directly where the middle of the "C" is formed to and completely on the top of the tail piece of the fork, on the 99 Crescent

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Now on the bicycle in question the middle of the "C" is about only half on the tail piece and half on the fork

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Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com
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bjd.

USA
1491 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2017 :  15:20:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As I posted on the other thread I have a crescent 17 and can send you photos next week if you want. It is in very rough shape.
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/21/2017 :  17:22:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No that won't be necessary, some other good folks have already emailed me some of the Crescent 17, but thank you very much, sorry I didn't respond sooner, I got caught up in it all..

I found the Crescent no. 17 had a head tube of 8" where as this bicycle of question has a head tube of 6" between collars. It was a side by side comparison of images I found that what is obvious now.





Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com

Edited by - Kurt S. on 08/21/2017 17:32:11
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2017 :  17:41:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So in researching the Crawford Bicycles, there does not appear to be any Crawford bicycles made as a chainless after the beginning of 1900. With that said, that means that the 1902 Crawford bicycle on the site Daves Vintage would be just a bicycle sporting a Crawford badge and not an authentic Crawford Chainless.

This also means that the 1898 Crawford design would rule, and is not the same in any way to that of the bicycle in question. There does not appear any evidence to suggest otherwise.


So, the search continues for the name of this rough gem of mine. It now takes me to Gormully & Jeffery , specifically interesting is the Clipper as being made by them. I have not found any photos of this chainless, yet. The Clipper badge I have only seen few and they were not a match to the holes in the head tube, but I haven’t seen everything, or ruled out the possibility.

The reasoning behind the Clipper search is the chainless drive I found on the Ramblers are somewhat identical to the bicycle in question, with the exception the scrolled embellishments to the shaft tube and the Rambler cranks are also different.

Here is an image of the G & J, Rambler drives for 1901 & 1902;
(note the serrated cap that protrudes out of the rear bevel gear cover and how the “C” of the fork mounts to the tail piece and the shaft tube, the front gear crankcase covers are also the same)

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Here again is the drive on the bicycle in question;

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So if you could humor me again to check your files for a Clipper Chainless, that would be incredibly kind of you.

I have found that the Clipper used a rather heavy stamp in their serial numbers and they did use letter prefixes in their serial numbers. I have only seen one example of the serial number but that was on a chain drive Clipper.

Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2017 :  09:04:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So some additional information I uncovered regarding the rear hub. It appears similar to that of a 1899 Cleveland Hub, found on a chain driven. Similar for the slotted spoke attachment on the drive side.

There is an printed image in a 1898 publication, but that hub is only similar for the slotted spoke attachment. The axle is a self oiler type also for chain drive.

The 1895 photo of a Cleveland chainless sold at Copake, is not a match for the hub or the drive shaft.

Below a photo of a 1898, Cleveland "CHAIN DRIVEN" hub;

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Compared to bicycle in question below;

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Any photos of Cleveland Chainless models, from the TOC might help rule in or out the Cleveland.

Thanks again!!!!

Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com

Edited by - Kurt S. on 08/27/2017 09:20:23
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Rex

USA
756 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2017 :  09:35:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kurt,
Here is a link to Howie Cohen's reprint of a catalog that showed many chainless models of 1900, including the Clipper as an ABC model. Unfortunately the pictures no longer seem available since Howie passed away. Don't know if you are interested in checking early ABC models. Also don't know whether you can find another copy of this catalog anyway. Many of Howie's items sold at the last few Copake Auctions, but I don't know if this was one of them. I think Bicycle Museum of America probably would have purchased it if it sold at Copake.
http://www.proteanpaper.com/scart_results.cgi?comp=howiebik&part=CatAntqBike-A-740

D. Rex Upshaw
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2017 :  09:58:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks Rex,

The thought of that crossed my mind as well, there is a copy for sale but at a couple of hundred dollars. It would be a shot in the dark to know if it would help, being that it is ink printed images.

It's a possibility though.

I spent most of last night and this morning going through patents, trying to find a match for the patent date on the crank hanger. It's a bit screwed up because they stamped the serial number on top of it, which of course makes it a bit hard to read to say the least. I have found a couple that may be associated with this bicycle, but need to process the information on them through this bag of straw I call a brain.


Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com
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Kurt S.

USA
250 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2017 :  10:55:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Rex,
Speaking about the patent numbers, I just took my collimator scope out and viewed the patent numbers on my bicycle; Very cool that scope is amazing.

Patented Nov. 18, 1888. This should be in reference to a German patent #47199.

The Clipper imported their parts from Germany according to this single ad I found on the back cover of a 1897 Recreation publication. Notably I recall Cleveland imported German materials as well, but found this interesting of the Clipper.

Ref; https://archive.org/stream/recreation06shie#page/n147/mode/2up/search/+Clipper

I have not found the actual patent from Germany yet, only references to it.

Thanks again!!!

Kurt J. Schaak
kurtschaak@yahoo.com
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Rex

USA
756 Posts

Posted - 08/27/2017 :  15:43:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Got the pictures and text to come up same as I saw before Howie passed, but to blow up big enough to read or see the picture without blurring is a problem. Had that problem with many of Howie's pictures or scans of catalogs in the past.
https://proteanpaper.com/scart_results.cgi?comp=howiebik&part=CatAntqBike-A-740&scat=&scatord=&scatall=&skey=&srkeyall=&srkeywords=&srcateg=

D. Rex Upshaw
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